Spider, just trying new things....

[blairo1]

So pretty much all I photograph are my fish, ok, ALL I shoot are my fish....

So today it got sunny and I thought I'd try some outdoor shots, nothing
special at all.

I was using extension tubes (?) that basically give me more of a macro effect
BUT I lose all control of f-stop and metering, so have to control this with the
shutter - with these extension tubes the aperture is wide open and I can't
control that. They are literally just steel tubes to go between body and lens.

The other problem this presents me with is an incredible short DOF, about a
hairs width lol, so I can't really get the shots I'm trying for, but I still quite
like the effect.

The main problem I have is exposure - in this first shot of the spider, it's rear
is just bleached out, how can I resurrect this issue whilst keeping the other
parts of the image at a good level? I don't know how you guys get such even
images when shooting in sunlight..... I have idea's but I'd like to know how
you do it.

Canon EOS 20D, EF-s 18-55mm lens with extension tubes (no thrills).
ISO 100, f-4, 1/600th
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m15/Blairo/SpiderHangs_up.jpg

Thanks for your help!
Blair.

[chubasco]

Hi Blair,
Yep, with that kit lens and adjusting fstop via the camera (if it's like the Nikon
kit lens) closes down a lot of options when using purely mechanical extension
tubes. Try using closeup filters in diopters 1,2, and 4, in 52mm diameter or
whatever the filter diameter is of your lens. This will connect the lens back to
the electronics of the camera body to adjust for fstop, (you can use AF again
not that you care) but allows more flexibility with these shots. Use a lens hood
of course in sunlight like this. Don't go butt-wild and buy B+W closeup
filters (a set of 3 in 1,2,4, will run close to what a macro lens will cost! but
they are the best) but get the midrange with better coatings in Sunpak,
or Hoya, will give you serviceable results. Additionally, (and I've never tried
this so I may be talking out my butt, but friends of mine swear by this) use
one of those circular filters that are 12-16" diameter and look like a wire circle
with a white sheet stretched across it. You place this in between the sunlight
beam and the subject you're shooting. This helps diffuse the light over the
subject where you don't get these hot spots.

HTH, be sure to grab yourself a nice day! :D

ps: it's nice to shoot with canon with mechanical lenses, because they
meter! You have to go up to Nikon D200/D2x for this feature.

[chubasco]

Blair,
This is still a decent macro, though, nothing to be ashamed of! Spider's face
and little legs show lots of detail!:-D

[blairo1]

Thanks Bill!

I do have some close-up filters but they are 52 mm for the old Olympus, this
EF-s lens is 58mm so I'll have to look for some new ones :). It would make
the world of difference having the lens attached to the body so that I can
actually control what the heck is going on! Maybe even get some DOF!!!!!
Wooot!

I'd not really thought of using a diffuser, but in this situation it would make
sense as I can quite easily control the environment. Hmmmm food for
thought, MORE things to play with!

This is great! So much to learn and experiment with....

Thanks for all your help Bill!

[Ibn]

Stop down on the lens more with the extension tubes and use a flash. Here's a shot taken with the 50mm f/1.4D + extension tubes.

http://www.pbase.com/ebn/image/62409783.jpg

[blairo1]

I'm a little confused -

The light was really bright,
I cannot control f-stop whilst using the tubes,
The only way I could get the levels even close was with s/s 1/600th

BUT with those extension tubes on my lens ALL I can control is shutter speed and ISO, I can't change aperture (automatic lens)....

Presumably you are able to control the aperture manually on your lens? Or am I missing something here!? (newb.)

Great pic by the way! I wish we had bugs like that around here.

[chubasco]

Eric,
That pic pops!

Blair,
Yes, Eric is using a fast 50 prime where aperture is set on the lens. With
extension tubes you are automatically stopping down by a factor of 2.

[blairo1]

Right-o, understood. :-D

[Ibn]

Can't you adjust aperture in manual mode? No adjustment was made on the lens. I just locked it down to the smallest aperture and the body takes over. For that shot, I just used aperture priority (vs. shutter).

[chubasco]

Can't you adjust aperture in manual mode? No adjustment was made on the lens. I just locked it down to the smallest aperture and the body takes over. For that shot, I just used aperture priority (vs. shutter).


Eric, are you using OEM Nikon tubes, or the "chipped" Kenkos? The camera can still control
the lens, then. Seems like with mechanical, non-chipped tubes and a lens that relies on f-stop
adjustment from the camera, you're dead in the water unless there's some sort of magical
programming(?) that will shoot the picture stopped-down, even when the lens is wide open.

I'm also wondering if he can attach the lens back to the body, stop it down to smallest aperture,
then remove the lens and place the mechanical tubes in between body and lens if the lens would
still remain stopped-down?

[blairo1]

I'm also wondering if he can attach the lens back to the body, stop it down to smallest aperture,
then remove the lens and place the mechanical tubes in between body and lens if the lens would
still remain stopped-down?

I tried this right now, it seems that the lens resets itself as soon as I
disconnect it.

I don't understand how you lock your aperture on your lens Eric - put it like
this, my lens HAS to be attached to the camera for me to contol aperture, if
I use the extension tubes, as far as the body is concerned, there is no lens
to control as it is not attached - the display for f-stop is 00 and I can't
change that as I have to control it through the camera, but the camera
cannot communicate with my lens....

There is no way I know of to get this lens to lock down on a particular f-stop.

Thanks for your help!

[chubasco]

I suspected as much, I don't have any AF lenses in the house to try it, but
figured it would simply snap back to wide open once it leaves the camera.
I'm pretty sure Eric is using chipped tubes which enables him to do what you
cannot.

[blairo1]

Chipped?
As in the electronics have been altered so that the lens stays at whatever
setting you require, regardless of it being detached from the camera?

If that's the case how much does that sort of thing cost?

[chubasco]

Chipped?
As in the electronics have been altered so that the lens stays at whatever
setting you require, regardless of it being detached from the camera?

If that's the case how much does that sort of thing cost?

"Chipped" means it has the copper chips in the mount of the tubes that
corresponds to the chips on the lens mount of the camera. Kenko is a 3rd
party manufacturer that makes dedicated extension tubes that have these
copper sensors (alongwith of course the OEM ones) that allows the lens to
stay fully wired to the camera for whatever program you're in. Nice to have
for AF lenses, and of course they can meter this way. Kenko set will run
$150-$200 and OEM will definitely run more.

Just checked, B&H has the 3-piece Kenko set for $169

[blairo1]

Ok, that makes sense.

Just one other thing - the close-up filters, you mentioned B&W ones and that
they would be more expensive, I don't understand what the difference is
between B&W ones or the others, or is that just a brand name?

If it's a brand name, who would do that!!!! Confusing idiots like me isn't
funny, ok it might be easy, but it's not funny!!!

:lol:

Alright maybe it is funny. I just found an actual filter with the B&W mark on it.

[chubasco]

Ok, that makes sense.

Just one other thing - the close-up filters, you mentioned B&W ones and that
they would be more expensive, I don't understand what the difference is
between B&W ones or the others, or is that just a brand name?

If it's a brand name, who would do that!!!! Confusing idiots like me isn't
funny, ok it might be easy, but it's not funny!!!

:lol:

Alright maybe it is funny. I just found an actual filter with the B&W mark on it.

Blair,
It's not B&W but B + W brand of closeup filters. I think they are either a
subsidiary or affiliated with Schneider-Kreusnach, a venerated German
optical company. These are the best, but will require a little searching to
get them in your particular lens diameter. I overstated my case when I said
a set of 3 would run close to what a macro lens would cost. Right now,
Adoroma has a #5 in 62mm for $33USD, very good buy, if you have a 62mm
lens. They show up on ebay in the states, but not often, and not much
selection. I still think a midrange Sunpak or Hoya would serve you just as
well, and they are easy to find.

[blairo1]

Ok thanks, I'm only after something that works anyway, it doesn't have to be the top range gear right now, although I would like a macro lens in the future. I am familiar with the Sunpak filters so I'll probably look into them.

Thanks again!

[Ibn]

Yup, using Kenko extension tubes, but not the new ones. These are non-DG Kenko tubes that I'm using. It keeps the metering, but not the autofocus feature on the lenses.

B+W makes some of the best filters out there. If you are gonna go w/a filter, go with good ones since there's no point in paying for decent glass and then sticking a inexpensive filter on it. For macro lenses, I don't use filters at all. For the zoom lenses, I use Hoya Pro 1 filters (B+W circular polarizer when I need to).

[chubasco]

Eric, you fooled me! I thought with your champagne appetite for Nikon digital
backs, you'd have the OEM tubes as well.:lol: He's got a kit lens that costs maybe
$100-120 on ebay, I was trying to save him some money. It makes a compelling argument
though, to buy just the #5 B+W or top range Hoya closeup filter, rather than buying a set of 3.
Would've allowed him to get up close and personal on that spider!;) He'll want to eventually graduate
to a macro. You still have that Tammy 90?

[Ibn]

I don't think Nikon makes any new extension tubes. :lol: I settled on the Kenko since it came in a nice set from another gentleman that dabbled with macro and got them for a great price ($75 for all 3).

Yup, I still have the Tammy 90, along w/the 55mm f/3.5 micro. If Blair is really short on money, perhaps take a look at some of the older micro lenses. The 55mm f/3.5 is a stellar performer; it just requires 27mm of extensions to get it to 1:1.

[chubasco]

I don't think Nikon makes any new extension tubes. :lol: And if they did, yours would be gold-plated! :badgrin: Yep, my bad on that one. I figured since Canon made expensive extension tubes, Nikon was doing the same.
I settled on the Kenko since it came in a nice set from another gentleman that dabbled with macro and got them for a great price ($75 for all 3).

Wow, good deal!

Yup, I still have the Tammy 90, along w/the 55mm f/3.5 micro. If Blair is really short on money, perhaps take a look at some of the older micro lenses. The 55mm f/3.5 is a stellar performer; it just requires 27mm of extensions to get it to 1:1.

Yep, I have the 105/4 and 55/3.5 micro-nikkors, excellent performers!

[chubasco]

Also, since Blair is shooting a 20D, he can get the Nikon>Canon focus confirm
adapter (about $69) which is nice to have. Wish they made those for Olympus...

[blairo1]

Ok so if I get a filter I should look at the #5 B+W, that will provide me with
similar results to the shot of the spider without having to use extension
tubes, correct? I'll look into that then.

In regards to the Macro, I wasn't looking to save money there - if I get a
macro I want it to really be the business. I won' t be getting it any time too
soon, so I have time to put money aside to really go for it, but I don't know
where to start looking at macro's.

The micro nikkors you're talking about, what's the difference between that
and a macro!? I did a seach and all I could find was macro and canon, or
micro and nikkor associations, not a description. Presumably I would need the
focus confirm adapter to use a nikkor lens?

Ahhh! lol.

I look at camera lenses and just think, well what the heck am I looking for
here, what's the difference! All these different f numbers and focal ranges,
it gets confusing. I just want a lens so I can get clean, sharp, close-up shots
of my fish, not a headache! :lol:

For example, is this lens any good? What would you recommend as a mutts
nutts macro?
http://www.canon.co.uk/For_Home/Product_Finder/Cameras/EF_Lenses/Macro_Lenses/EF_100mm_f28_Macro_USM/

Thanks for your help guys.
Blair.

[maddog10]

In regards to the Macro, I wasn't looking to save money there - if I get a macro I want it to really be the business. I won' t be getting it any time too soon, so I have time to put money aside to really go for it, but I don't know where to start looking at macro's.
I would not skimp on a macro lens if you are going to take a lot of fish shots. It will be money well spent.

The micro nikkors you're talking about, what's the difference between that and a macro!?
No difference, Nikon just calls theirs micro.

I look at camera lenses and just think, well what the heck am I looking for here, what's the difference! All these different f numbers and focal ranges,
This is where it helps to do a lot of reading (at least it helped me). This is how I understand it: The lower the f/number, the larger the aperture. A lens with a lower f/number will allow more light through to fall on the sensor and thus allow you to shot in lower available light with faster shutterspeed and lower ISO etc. Esentially it gives you more options, it would be called a "fast" lens. Generally, the lower the f/number the better the lens. Especially if it is a zoom lens that holds the same f/number throughout its total focal length range. I relate focal length to Field of View (FOV). The lower the focal length the greater the FOV. A 28mm lens is considered a wide angle lens (you see more of the surrounding area in the shot and the subject will appear farther away). Where as a 200mm lens is considered a telephoto lens (you see less of the surrounding area and the subject seems to be closer than what it really is). I believe 50mm is considered a normal lens (if the subject is 10 feet away, it will appear to be 10 feet away in the photo: there is no reduction or magnification involved). I really am not the one to give technical advice, I just thought it might be helpfull to explain it in the way that my simple brain comprehends it :-D
For example, is this lens any good? What would you recommend as a mutts nutts macro?
I will let the Canon guys comment on this lens, I know nothing about it.


I hope I was able to help!

[chubasco]

Blair,
The lens you cited, is the one to get. This is what Ed uses, and has
made some truly stunning fish fotos with it! Has internal focusing, so the
front element doesn't telescope out, nice when you're shooting bugs and
timid flowers!:lol: It is top-rated for bokeh, and will double as a superb head
shot portrait lens. This is the direction you want to go, because you can't
use any E-TTL flash programs with mechanical (like the micro-nikkor) lenses.
When I was shooting Canon DSLR, I had the earlier 100/2.8 that lacked the
fast USM motor of the newer one, still produced amazingly sharp photos!

[blairo1]

Michael thanks for your help!

I do understand f-numbers, lol, I was just venting my general confusion and you hit the nail on the head - the FOV and focal ranges, as this is something I've never really looked at and is what I've had trouble understanding. Your explanation was spot on :) thanks for that! I have a better idea of what I'm looking at.

Bill - B-),

That's the lens I was looking at. Cheapest I can find that baby is £317 (640 bucks!!). Well at least I have something to shoot for now, to be honest it's not as much as I thought I might have been forking out, so this is good news.

Thanks for all your help guys.
Blair.